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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:44 am 
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Lobsel Vith wrote:
... and in Downloaded Boomer knew nothing about how the Cylons infiltrated the Colonial systems (see her surprise when Caprica reveals Gaius' part). Honestly, there's no reason why Boomer was made a sleeper agent (only things we can infer) but it seems she was a brand new Eight, and if they were giving her a lie and protocols to make sure she would follow through with the plan, it's doubtful she would be in on anything.

There was no such things as “brand new" Cylons. They were created by model and then all copies more or less at once. If they were able to make new ones they wouldn’t have needed Hera for their survival but could have just revived new copies of the existing models.

Sharon “Boomer” Valerii, the cover ID was 100% “human” and knew nothing more about Cylons as the other humans. But the Eight underneath knew all (see The Plan). However that Eight came to hate herself for what she did and committed “suicide” by letting her consciousness slip away so that only her human cover ID – Sharon Valerii – would remain and download. This is kind of shown in The Plan. First the Eight tells Cavil that she likes herself so much better as Sharon and later, after she had forced herself to shoot Adama she tells Cavil she will no longer help him with his plan (“I lost the best part of myself”) and Cavil puts the elephant away and only Sharon Valerii is left.

It is kind of ironic that through this she enabled Boomer later to fall again for Cavil’s deception and he finally destroyed her completely by having her commit more unforgivable crimes.

When Boomer resurrected in Downloaded only Sharon Valerii’s consciousness made it, the original Eight’s consciousness got lost. The Boomer from Downloaded on was a 100% human consciousness in a Cylon body. She had the abilities that came with the “hard Ware” (datastream connectivity, projections, resurrection ...) but no Cylon memories. That’s why she didn’t share the religiousness of her model sisters.
And that’s also why she didn’t fit in with either side. The human’s rejected her for being physically a Cylon and she didn’t fit in with the Cylons because her mind was human.


Destruction of Troy
It is pretty evident that the Eight that would become Sharon Valerii / Boomer was involved into the destruction of Troy.
Since the show (del scene from The Plan) implies that she and Gina Inviere were leaving Troy in that scene it is quite logical to assume they also set the explosives that caused the disaster. Why wouldn’t they when they were already there? Especially when considering how difficult it was to smuggle agents into the colonies.

Evidence that the Cylons destroyed Troy and that it was no accident:

a.) It was required for Sharon Valerii’s cover to be solid.

b.) The preparation of the fake memories and programming required substantial time so using a natural disaster is out.

c.) This nice little piece of evidence in Downloaded:
Boomer: “Yeah, well at least I'm not a murderer. I have a conscience. And I know the difference between right and wrong.“
Three: “A murderer is exactly what you are.
Since Boomer didn’t kill anybody on Galactica or thereafter this can only refer to what she (actually the original Eight) did before – Troy!

But this also confirms that the original Eight’s consciousness and memories didn’t make it through the download.

d.) Origin Comics: Starbuck & Helo
Okay those are only half canon but they are authorized by the studio & Moore.
In this comic series it is shown that the Eight that would later become Sharon Valerii destroyed Troy.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:18 pm 
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jxf011 wrote:
Thomas said: “If they were able to make new ones they wouldn’t have needed Hera for their survival but could have just revived new copies of the existing models.”

I’m not sure about this, I think the Cylons could have created new copies of a model, at least while Resurrection technology existed. 2 other possible explanations for Hera being important to the Cylons:
* Before the Hub was destroyed: reproduction is God’s commandment, to be fruitful. Not a big deal to Cavil but other models care a lot about it
* After the Hub was destroyed: Ellen made it clear that the key to continuing the Cylon race now that Resurrection was destroyed was Hera, the only biologically created Cylon.

They could not make new copies
- Resurrection is just that – preservation of :the already existing individuals. It can not create new or even duplicate existing individuals.
- They were already desperately trying to reproduce (Farms, Athena’s crossbreeding assignment, ...) before the destruction of the hub. But because they had resurrection the issue was not an existential one at that point – they hat eternity to solve the problem. Hera only became super important after resurrection was gone and they were running out of time.
- If resurrection could have made new individuals the rebel Cylons would not have destroyed it – at least not until they had put life into all available bodies of Twos, Sixes and Eights, maybe even Threes.
- The final five were the ones that made the humanoid bodies and brought them to life. After Cavil had “killed” the five production halted (if they had not stopped already)
- On the entire show there was never the slightest indication that some individuals were “younger” than others.


jxf011 wrote:
While Boomer may have done the sabotage on Troy, she may have also earned the murderer label by leaving the hatch combing open which allowed a Doral to suicide bomb a bunch of people.

That would only be negligence or dereliction of duty, not even negligent homicide and for sure not murder.


jxf011 wrote:
Three could also been calling Boomer a murderer in a group sense, like all Cylons are murderers and she’s a Cylon, ergo Boomer is a murderer. Sort of like some people saying we’re all sinners without specific knowledge of every individual - they state that sin is a common, root condition of Humans.

I don’t think so. Sharon (Boomer) would not have been impressed by that. She knew already she was a Cylon and she already saw all Cylons as evil murderers (destruction of the colonies). But she did not identify herself as an individual with the holocaust because she (Sharon Valerii) was fighting on the right, on the human side.
Three telling her that she was a murderer meant she (more correctly the Eight she was before) had personally committed murder.
The reason Sharon (Boomer) did not now about any of this is that she had none of her original Eight’s memories. Not from before and not from while she was Sharon. She did not remember the sabotage acts or even shooting Adama. She only learned about that when she was locked up for it and later, after her download, when the Cylon declared her a hero for it.

“Boomer” has to be seen as two distinct individuals:
- The Eight who volunteered to become a sleeper agent. She committed all the crimes – destruction of Troy, blowing up the water tanks, shooting Adama. And in the end she hated herself for doing all that. The Eight was kind of able to observe Sharon Valerii’s life but was unable to interfere unless activated.
- Sharon “Boomer” Valerii, the human personality that was created out of false memories but became an independent individual through her time at the academy and on Galactica. She had no knowledge of the Eight personality that was behind her.

Sharon “Athena” Agathon – the Eight that turned herself into Sharon Valerii to seduce Helo was a fusion – both Eight Cylon and Sharon Valerii human at the same time. Her two personalities had become (more or less) one, and she was fully aware of where she came from and how she was created.
But she too favored her human side and later suppressed her Eight Cylon identity (for example she gave up to project because it was a Cylon habit).


jxf011 wrote:
Have you read through the comics? Do they all have some Boomer/Athena in them of just a sub-set?.

Through some. Unfortunately most of them were either pre-Caprica (and therefore the stories how the Cylons were made are “incorrect”) or they take too many liberties (like stating that there was a real Sharon Valerii who was copied to make Boomer & the Eights).


jxf011 wrote:
Good points about Boomer’s past Cylon memories being washed out and lost due to her stress, mental breakdowns, and downloading. Though I don’t think “he finally destroyed her” - Cavil manipulated, brain washed, and dominated Boomer but she made a willing choice to follow his orders. But, critically, Boomer changed her mind largely due to her love with Chief being rekindled and her not being able to treat Hera harshly. It was Boomer’s Human sense of love that helped her to a Good, final decision to hand Hera back. In the end for Boomer, this good act destroyed her so it was the ultimate sacrifice.

It wasn’t “stress, mental breakdowns, and downloading” that washed out the original Eight’s memories. That Eight, out of self-disgust, quite literally committed suicide by letting Sharon Valerii taking over. Or better let Cavil kill her by not letting her die as Eight but as Sharon when he put the elephant away.

And yes, Cavil destroyed Boomer. He exploited her vulnerability, her being lost between both worlds, her inherent weakness. He pretended to love her (like he did already with her original Eight identity (see in The Plan) who also wasn’t very willing and rather coerced into shooting Adama) to make her his tool. Boomer was lost and afraid to loose that little bit of love and comfort he offered her and threatened to withdraw. Sure she made a choice to follow him. But her choices were very limited by fear of loss and weakness.
She did not have the inner strength and determination Athena had when she decided to risk literally everything and cut and run to be with the man she loved and in the life she wanted.
Boomer had chances to do the same but rather took the way she perceived as save. But that was the way into destruction.

Reuniting with Chief reignited her true love and desires that she had buried for so long. And on the flight back she started to see Hera like her own daughter she always wanted. But even there she did not have the backbone to turn around and face the consequences of her deeds.
Only in the very end, when Hera’s life was threatened she finally made the right decision. But there it was too late for herself.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:23 am 
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It was pretty much implied that they could not make new copies. Not after the final five were gone.
And don’t take Ellen Tigh as reliable source – she’s twisting the truth all the time.
Athena’s way of procreation was to fulfill God’s commandment.
The Farms were just to create new life at all cost.
And the destruction of the Hub meant that every Cylon who died would be really dead. But that does by no means mean they could make new copies before because as I said if they could have made more copies they would but they didn’t.

The plan elaborated long on Boomer’s sleeper identity blowing up the water tanks. And it is quite possible she gave Cavil the materials to make the suicide vest. But if you watch The Plan you will see that Cavil gave the Five the vest. And that was before Boomer may have left the hatch-combing open.
But that would still not really account for murder (forget US law – what counts is what Boomer would think).
To me it is a fact that the Eight that became Boomer was involved in the destruction of Troy. It is simply dictated by logic: Troy had to be destroyed soon after she left and she and Gina were already there.
I don’t know why there is this urge to give her a white wash? It was war (declared by Adama when he sent that spy ship over the armistice line 6 years before the attack) and they all had a hand in killing billions of humans.
But Sharon Valerii was innocent in those crimes.

We never got any insight what Athena did before she took on her assignment, which is actually a pity.
But killing humans and murdering them are two different things. I take it that Athena was a Cylon soldier (pilot) and as such she may have killed humans in the battle. Athena’s whole demeanor with Helo after he found out, on Kobol, as prisoner and later as a colonial officer mirrored more that of Hard Eight, the Cylon pilot from Face of the Enemy than that of other regular Eights or even Boomer.
She was a pretty tough chick right from the start. Just look how quick she got over the rape. Her only soft spots were Helo and Hera.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:23 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:38 am 
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No my evidence is not from the comics (though the Starbuck & Helo Origin is one of the better ones and no it is not the one that has Sharon copied from a human).

Eight’s (future Boomer) demeanor in the scene with Gina before leaving Troy was all about herself. She didn’t care about having set a bomb that would kill a few thousand anonymous enemies to establish her cover but was only concerned about what would happened to herself.
Then consider how joyful that Eight in The Plan was about nuking Caprica and wiping out all humans
I doubt the Eight with Gina had the slightest feelings of remorse about killing humans at that point.
That came only later, after she had lived a human life as Sharon Valerii. After she had seen the world through human eyes and experienced human love. The Eight from before was cold as stone towards the fate of the humans.
I think you make the mistake to to take pre Sharon Valerii Eight for the already changed one you see in The Plan.

The fact that Cavil didn’t remind Eight that she had destroyed Troy does not prove she didn’t – just the opposite. Eight was already very hesitant to kill Adama, a man she came to love (through Boomer).
She was reluctant and full of remorse. Telling her about terrible crimes she had committed before would hardly have changed her mind in Cavil’s way but rather intensified the feeling of guilt and remorse she already had for blowing up the water tanks and all her other sabotage acts. Had Cavil brought up Troy she would have flat out refused shooting Adama.

Let’s look at the evidence and use logic and not wishful thinking and Boomer nostalgia:
1. It is heavily hinted in the series bible that the Cylons destroyed Troy to establish the Sharon Valerii cover.
2. The destruction of Troy was absolutely necessary to establish the Sharon Valerii cover. Without it she would have very soon been discovered as a fraud.
3. It was no accident – the timing was just too convenient. “Boomer” and Gina left and Troy blew up right after their ship took off.
4. The destruction of Troy was key to help Boomer to get in and stay in Colonial service.
5. Getting Cylon agents into the colonies was not easy.
6. The Cylons confirmed to have been on Troy right before the destruction were “Boomer” and Gina Inviere.

If you then add Three’s Murderer comment from Downloaded it doesn’t look to good for Boomer’s innocence in the Troy matter.

==> Boomer and Gina set the explosives that destroyed Troy


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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:37 am 
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I find your argument intersting as it raised questions that I'd never thought of before (it looked obvious to me at the time).
Now the discussion will be endless as it seems there's no positive evidence to tilt the scales in favor of one explanation over the other.

About the pool of replacement bodies I always had the feeling they could make new ones. There seemed to be a relatively limited amount of spare bodies on the hub. The Cylons never seemed to worry being killed and even killed themselves quite easily. What future could they have if they coudn't produce new bodies?

Why coudn't the Cylon models be copied from real human beings? We know that Ellen Tigh modelled Cavil after her father. It seems quite far fetched to imagine them creating a new DNA from scratch when they can just improve an existing one. In Razor we see them trying to create hybrids and in the farm they still need humans to solve their breeding problems.

About Caprica Sharon, I had in mind that they had planted Boomer's memories in a new body i.e an Eight without personnal past.

Did the Cylons destroy Troy? It's been alledged that it was an accident caused by methane gas. In the Miniseries when she tries to comfort Boxey Boomer tells him that her parents died when she was little... Sharon's cover didn't need absolutely the destruction of Troy. It could have been made up quite easily on a rough colony where accidents were propably frequent. But I admit the blow up was convenient. The choice of Troy as her homeland is clearly not accidental as she was some kind of Troyen horse.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:40 pm 
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@ Jack

Of course they could make new replacement bodies for the existing individuals. That was clearly part of resurrection.

The discussion was if they could make new individuals of the existing models at any point in time. And I see no evidence of that. Because if they could have made new ones the Rebels would have done it in The Hub. Their numbers were depleted and for their survival they would have needed as many fighters as possible.
As I see it the Final Five designed and created them and after they were gone no new were made.

As for Sharon “Athena” Agathon. She was clearly NOT a new soul created out of Boomer’s memories without her own past. She said that herself in a deleted scene of The Road Less Traveled: “...I know what the Cylons are Helo. I’ve lived that miserable emptiness ...”
But even without that her actions, her behavior, her whole personality made it very clear that she had her own, well experienced personality and was not a just a Boomer copy.
Grace stated that herself: “As for Season One, the two Sharons were almost identical because it was H-Sharon's (Athena) job to exactly duplicate the Sharon that Helo always knew. But H-Sharon was always different, she was just holding herself back, always acting. Threats to her life, racism, physical and sexual attacks, imprisonment, isolation and her pregnancy have pushed H-Sharon to the edge, revealing extreme dimensions of her character.


Making copies of real people? Maybe. But Moore stated explicitly that Sharon was not a copy of the “real human” Sharon Valerii .

And Cavil was also not a copy of Ellen's father. Ellen’s father was just the template his appearance and personality was modeled after. To make a copy you need the original and if Ellen had had that she would have just resurrected her father.


Quote:
Sharon Valerii
...
She applied to the Colonial Academy, scored well on the entrance exams, and soon was aboard a commercial transport ship, on her way to Caprica for the in-person interview. Sharon was napping when the word came in of a massive accident on Troy. She awoke to the news that her entire settlement - more than 200,000 people — was wiped out in a series of titanic explosions which ripped away the protective domes keeping out the poisonous atmosphere of Troy. Investigation would pinpoint the cause as a hitherto unsuspected, and huge, pocket of volatile methane gas which was suddenly ignited by the mining operation.

The disaster stunned the colonies, and amid the massive outpouring of sympathy for the dead, Sharon was accepted into the Academy on the strength of her exams
alone — and obviously, there could be no background investigation. ...
...
She applied to flight school, hardly daring to hope that she would be admitted, but the bureaucratic wheels had been greased for this child of the doomed settlement, and she was accepted over several more qualified candidates. ...

Sharon is unaware of her true nature, unaware that far from being the daughter of a mining family, that she is in reality a Cylon sleeper agent, implanted into Colonial society. She slipped onto to the commercial transport just before it left Troy, fully aware of her mission and her nature. But when she awoke from her "nap" her cover program took hold from that point forward, she believed herself to a normal human being with a tragic past. ...

Now, this states clearly that Sharon only got into pilot training because of the destruction of Troy. And it also makes clear that without Troy gone Sharon’s cover would have been blown. The colonies, even the remote outposts, where not the wild west. The colonies had quite diligent record keeping (the show established that countless times). So it would have been easy for some investigator to contact someone on Troy to see if there was a Sharon Valerii and if her story checks out. And there her cover would be blown. And let me assure you, such background checks are customary in every military service, theses days even for the French Foreign Legion.
What Sharon told Boxey in the mini may have been just a lie to comfort the kid or they didn’t have the details figured out.
To me it is absolutely clear that the Cylons destroyed Troy to create Sharon’s cover.
And since the Eight that would take on that role and Gina Inviere were already there it is quite logical to assume they were the ones that set the explosives to destroy Troy to create the cover. Troy blowing up right after they left is way too coincidental.
And no, it was no accident they just piggybacked on. The preparations for the false identity had to be too elaborate to do that on a moment’s notice. And how would they have known of it in advanced to be there and leave just in time?


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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Ok you both make points here.

I have to say that I was so unsettled by the end of the story that I never watched it since then. My memories are fading a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Jack Raby wrote:
I have to say that I was so unsettled by the end of the story that I never watched it since then. My memories are fading a bit.

I was like that before. And I assume there are many others that feel the same. That may be why the BSG boards are so "dead" these days.
But this year I finally pulled the plug on the Blu-ray set (after the price had come down to a reasonable level - and I had already the DVDs) and did a re-watch. I can tell you it was well worth it. Despite gaping plot holes (you really find them when you try to fill the gaps in Helo & Athena's story) it is still an awesome show and well worth a second, third, ... watch.
Though to get my Grace fix I now mostly watch the fan edits.

If I watch the whole show I usually just skip the end (just before they decided to leave all technology beind).
But Season's 1 and 2 are way too good not to rewatch them. And even the Athena & Helo bits and pieces we get in seasons 3 & 4 are still very good.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Thomas wrote:
But Season's 1 and 2 are way too good not to rewatch them. And even the Athena & Helo bits and pieces we get in seasons 3 & 4 are still very good.


With that I totally agree. I have Helo/Athena fanedits of the 3 first seasons that I have rewatched later but not since a long time. I think I'm ready for a rewatch with the HD fanedits.


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 Post subject: Re: The Empress' story - may she live forever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Jack Raby wrote:
I have to say that I was so unsettled by the end of the story that I never watched it since then. My memories are fading a bit.

Same here. :gloomy:

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